http://ecolocalizer.com/2008/02/07/wind-farms-sorting-the-wheat-from-the-chaffinches/ News & commentary on sustainability, activism, urban planning, politics, and our world. Sat, 11 Feb 2012 22:32:13 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 http://ecolocalizer.com/2008/02/07/wind-farms-sorting-the-wheat-from-the-chaffinches/comment-page-1/#comment-55134 Not Everybody Loves Offshore Wind Power in Spain : EcoWorldly Wed, 20 Aug 2008 04:26:23 +0000 http://ecoworldly.com/2008/02/07/wind-farms-sorting-the-wheat-from-the-chaffinches/#comment-55134 [...] construction of  31 offshore wind farms, to be ready by the year 2012, is not being totally accepted by [...] [...] construction of  31 offshore wind farms, to be ready by the year 2012, is not being totally accepted by [...]

]]> http://ecolocalizer.com/2008/02/07/wind-farms-sorting-the-wheat-from-the-chaffinches/comment-page-1/#comment-55133 Hugh Sloan Sun, 10 Aug 2008 13:52:48 +0000 http://ecoworldly.com/2008/02/07/wind-farms-sorting-the-wheat-from-the-chaffinches/#comment-55133 VERY interesting. I am researching (using term loosely) four areas: (1) burning coal with zero CO2 emmissions (coke transient), (2) solar panel removal of reradiation (initial energy 1300 watts sqm) as energy is 'absorbed', (3) wind turbine issues (intermittent output, threat to birds, mortality in construction/maintenance, energy transport from remote areas incl substa/trans lines, visual pollution or delight, intrinsic hazard - loss of blade, higher wind blade feathering creating a cap on output, AND energy removal between descending and rising masses of air or the 'helicopter effect'), and (4) actual non-sunk, total costs of electric vehicles (battery manufacture energy required/disposal, call for reduction of electric use contradicted by auto plug-in, health care for incrementally more serious traffic incidents in SMALL cars, energy cost/loss to drive axle comparing electrical generation/trans- mission/transfer to auto and change to mechanical energy vs. loss/cost of oil production/distribution/ transfer and change of thermal to mechanical). My primary concerns are aggregate and comparative climatic effects of energy capture by the 'shading' of areas of land by solar, removal of energy from the wind, and ignoring the 'coking' of coal for energy which is atmospherically non-polluting. Peripherally, I wonder about NET energy considering all cost and energy inputs to the entire chain/channel serving the eventual outlets that power an axle or light bulb or whatever. Finally, meteorologist are NOT permitted to discard their sophisticated dialogue/models involving the extreme sensitivity of system initial conditions (butterfly effect) and ignore wind power (what I call 'helicopter effect' vs. 'butterfly effect'). Now I will confess my PhD is in business and not the 'hard' sciences (which I find easier), but we did touch upon math (!) and had a few requirements to think sytemically/systemmatically and actually have our arguments make sense. Maybe our preoccupation with the ENTIRE cost picture (e.g., supply chain, value chain, manufacture + channels of distribution, and so on) makes us chuckle at these many 'sage' evaluations presented in splendid isolation. I can prove anything if you let me toss a few costs. Finally, finally - there can be NO sensible (even sane) legislation that does not honor any component of the system. You don't get to cherry-pick energy methods and survive the BS test (there are other names for the test). Thanks. GREAT question. Butterflys anyone? VERY interesting. I am researching (using term loosely) four areas: (1) burning coal with zero CO2 emmissions (coke transient), (2) solar panel removal of reradiation (initial energy 1300 watts sqm) as energy is ‘absorbed’, (3) wind turbine issues (intermittent output, threat to birds, mortality in construction/maintenance, energy transport from remote areas incl substa/trans lines, visual pollution or delight, intrinsic hazard – loss of blade, higher wind blade feathering creating a cap on output, AND energy removal between descending and rising masses of air or the ‘helicopter effect’), and (4) actual non-sunk, total costs of electric vehicles (battery manufacture energy required/disposal, call for reduction of electric use contradicted by auto plug-in, health care for incrementally more serious traffic incidents in SMALL cars, energy cost/loss to drive axle comparing electrical generation/trans- mission/transfer to auto and change to mechanical energy vs. loss/cost of oil production/distribution/ transfer and change of thermal to mechanical).
My primary concerns are aggregate and comparative climatic effects of energy capture by the ‘shading’ of areas of land by solar, removal of energy from the wind, and ignoring the ‘coking’ of coal for energy which is atmospherically non-polluting. Peripherally, I wonder about NET energy considering all cost and energy inputs to the entire chain/channel serving the eventual outlets that power an axle or light bulb or whatever.
Finally, meteorologist are NOT permitted to discard their sophisticated dialogue/models involving the extreme sensitivity of system initial conditions (butterfly effect) and ignore wind power (what I call ‘helicopter effect’ vs. ‘butterfly effect’).
Now I will confess my PhD is in business and not the ‘hard’ sciences (which I find easier), but we did touch upon math (!) and had a few requirements to think sytemically/systemmatically and actually have our arguments make sense. Maybe our preoccupation with the ENTIRE cost picture (e.g., supply chain, value chain, manufacture + channels of distribution, and so on) makes us chuckle at these many ‘sage’ evaluations presented in splendid isolation. I can prove anything if you let me toss a few costs.
Finally, finally – there can be NO sensible (even sane) legislation that does not honor any component of the system. You don’t get to cherry-pick energy methods and survive the BS test (there are other names for the test).
Thanks. GREAT question. Butterflys anyone?

]]> http://ecolocalizer.com/2008/02/07/wind-farms-sorting-the-wheat-from-the-chaffinches/comment-page-1/#comment-55132 Mark Seall Thu, 07 Feb 2008 14:16:05 +0000 http://ecoworldly.com/2008/02/07/wind-farms-sorting-the-wheat-from-the-chaffinches/#comment-55132 Something which I have often wondered about: Say we get to the happy situation where 50% of the world's energy is produced by wind. That's a lot of energy. If we are effectively removing that energy from our weather systems, isn't there a risk that we do some damage in upsetting the earth's natural weather balance? Has the effect of large scale wind energy on the weather ever been modeled? I'm slightly curious about that... Something which I have often wondered about: Say we get to the happy situation where 50% of the world’s energy is produced by wind. That’s a lot of energy. If we are effectively removing that energy from our weather systems, isn’t there a risk that we do some damage in upsetting the earth’s natural weather balance? Has the effect of large scale wind energy on the weather ever been modeled? I’m slightly curious about that…

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